Bones Theory

A Morning After Q Revisited: Who Is More Vulnerable Right Now- Booth or Brennan?

75 Comments

{Edit from Seels: I wrote this post, but since the original MAQ was brought to us by bbmagic, I made her the author of this post in order for her to see the discussion.}

Good morning!

Last night, I asked pals on Twitter to help me remember what Booth said in response to Brennan’s question to him on how he explains ‘her amazing abilities’ when she’s not around. In my mind, I was imagining that he had said something about her gorgeous brain (he’s done that before) or how special she is, or something the equivalent of “Bones, you are the standard”.

 I honestly (in my mind) imagined he’d said something like that. I think I was caught up in his smiles and Brennan’s reaction, and I missed what he actually DID say, which was…

“Yours would be a rigorous application of training and intense attention to detail.”

Um…what?

Haha! When pals Owl and Lancifer and Frankie and Ryn tweeted me with those words, I sort of stared at them (the words! haha), trying to reconcile them with the emotional pull I felt had happened in that scene. I replied that I guess I’d imagined they were a lot more romantic, and that was just the power of the Boreanaz smile or something.

And pal tantemary replied, “I think to her (Brennan), it was romantic,” and “I think Booth was rather pleased with himself as well”.

And Ryn also tweeted, “I think she viewed it as very romantic. I don’t think she wanted to be seen as ‘magicky’. She’s almost hesitant when she asked, and gives him a beaming smile after his answer. It matters that his answer is clinical. It’s how she sees herself, and it matters that he sees her that way, too. More, I think because it’s how he sees others. So I think it’s very romantic to her, a ‘just-for-her description. Others get ‘magicky’- she gets what matters most to her.”

And Lancifer said it too, “I think the fact that he used ‘her’ language to describe her amazing powers is the best romance he could have given her.”

Ah, so there’s some vulnerability there, from both of them! I think Brennan did sort of put herself out there, asking Booth to tell her what he says about her– meaning, she’s inviting him to tell her what he thinks about her, particularly when she’s not around.

And for Booth, he offers up a somewhat squinty answer, but it’s also sweet, in that he uses “her language” as Lancifer described it. It would not be in his comfort zone to talk like that. A Booth-y answer would normally be, “You’re the best, Bones. I just know.” or something like that!

So, in this new stage where they are sort of feeling each other up out, has there been a shift on the vulnerability scale? Is one more vulnerable than the other? We talked yesterday about this in a way, when we described that one (or both) would need to make a move. Making a move is a blend of confidence and vulnerability, and so the question is…is one of them exhibiting more of that than the other? Brennan seems to be more open, which makes me consider her vulnerability, but if it’s Booth’s second time around to trying with her, does that make him the more vulnerable one?

 Here is the original MAQ and discussion for this issue, which took place in the middle of November (seems like ages ago!), and B&B have come a long way since then in some ways. I think it’s worth re-examining this question for where the partners are at this stage of the game.

Thoughts from you?

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75 thoughts on “A Morning After Q Revisited: Who Is More Vulnerable Right Now- Booth or Brennan?

  1. I think it’s mutual. Most people would not put themselves back out to get hurt again by the same person, not without being extra sure it would work out. At the same time, Brennan has never gone into a relationship seeing it with a future. She’s always just wanted to have fun. This time around she wants to try something that is new and foreign to her!

  2. I don’t think there’s vulnerability at all anymore. I think that, having made their de facto commitment in Blizzard (complete with unity candle) they both have the confidence to move forward, and they are – albeit at their usual snails’ pace.

    If this were real life, all these conversations would take place in one sitting but since it’s a tv show we get five minute snippets. They discuss standing by each other. They discuss being contrite rather than being sorry. They figure out a way to reconcile their opposing belief systems. And here, Booth demonstrates that he knows Brennan’s love language and he knows when to use it.

    I have been saying since forever that for Booth to persuade Brennan of the true depth of his affection, he needs to abandon all this fate, magic, “the one”, “the standard” talk and give her logical reasons why he loves her.

    All that stuff you expected/wanted to hear, Sarah, is stuff that is meaningless to Brennan. She doesn’t believe in any of that. Every time Booth used that language back in season 5, he just reinforced her belief that he didn’t “know the truth of her”.

    Brennan already has demonstrated knowing Booth’s love language – by bringing him the Tommy guns in Bikini, by assuring him she would “always” stand beside him, without pointing out that she could not literally be next to him at all times. (although I love her joke about the fact that they are currently sitting.)

    All we are really waiting for is the moment one of them decides it’s time to consummate the relationship that is already there, IMO.

    • Your right, up until Blizzard, Brennan really hasn’t heard from Booth any concrete evidence as to why they should be together. He has constantly used words like magic, standard, chance and love; but, to Brennan she needs to hear rational reasons why they should be a couple. I think Booth has finally realized that and using the words she needs to hear, not the words he needs to hear. Brennan fears losing her best friend and partner, if this goes wrong and so does Booth. I think both are being very careful right now in how they are approaching each other. Neither wants the other to feel vulnerable and exposed to risk.

      • Lenora I think you got it exactly right. Booth has started using the words Brennan needs to hear instead of the words he needs to hear. Brennan has started doing the same thing, telling Booth that she’d always be standing beside him (except that they are sitting right now…so funny). You know in the past that type of comment from Booth would have cause Brennan to start a lecture on along the lines of you can’t know what future holds so cannot say that you’d always do something. Booth would have been likely to roll his eyes at such an analytical explanation of what Brennan does instead of using that himself.

        They are both learning and both adapting to the needs of the other. Really for the first time they truly are both moving toward what looks like it could be a successful personal relationship.

      • Frankie, I agree with you. I think both Brennan and Booth have adapted and they both are now using the words that the other understands best. I think that they are both using the knowledge they have gained from making past mistakes with each other and are trying to minimize the misunderstandings that have plagued their past relationship. Both have been rather stubborn about how they use language towards each other. I think they are now trying to use the language that makes the other comfortable. I think this is why they seemed so relaxed with each other this last Thursday. They were talking to each other, not at each other.

  3. I think Booth’s answer to Brennan’s question did make her very happy and could have been the most romantic thing he ever said to her (in her eyes). I think she was so happy with it because it showed that Booth knows her, not a romanticized version of her, but the real her. In the 100th her response was that she couldn’t change, couldn’t be what he wanted her to be. With this answer he shows that he does know the real her, and yet he’s still interested. 🙂

    Which of them is most vulnerable is a difficult question for me to answer because I think both are very vulnerable right now, but at the same time. Both of them have been hurt now and both have had to call into questions things they’ve thought they knew about themselves; things they thought very basic to their beings.

    I have to agree with Becca that they are mutually vulnerable. And maybe that ties back to yesterday’s question about who will make the first move? They will move forward together, both making the first move.

  4. I think After Blizzard they’re no more vulnerable about each other anymore.They’re secure about their love for each other and their commitment, thier promise, and even that Booth said he was angry and not prepare , is not what we’re seeing when they’re together. That’s why i think there’s no place for vulnerability for them. Just trust, commitment,security and true love.

  5. Agreed about that scene. I think Booth using that language to her was similar to the coma dream, where she says “You used logic on me. That’s sweet!”
    They’re probably about equally vulnerable. It may be Booth’s second try, but Brennan also felt rejected what with the whole Hannah thing / Doctor in the Photo. But it looks like they’re both making progress now.

  6. I agree—For some reason, the word “vulnerable” doesn’t really come to mind with them anymore. (They’ve been through that, and then some).
    That scene in the bar just proves the level of comfort between them. In a sense, their “buddy-ness” is sort of the way folks I know that are couples and have been together for years, behave. It really is as if they are “together”.

    Look, B&B are our reflections—characters that are living what we all go through as human beings—the good, bad, and ugly parts. To see them come out of all that, and just be sippin’ beer, joking, and still sharing sweet (but more laid back) looks—–Well, shoot. Now more than ever, I think they are gonna be just fine.

    And when “it does happen”, I agree with the people who have said it’s not gonna be a huge explosion or revelation. That’s why the vulnerability idea doesn’t really come into play—there’s no cause for it. Cards are on the table. No big surprises (at least romantically). That does not mean however, they cannot share moments where they light each other up—-it’s more of an understanding, an acknowledgement, reaffirmed mutual love and respect.
    NO ONE should get sick of that 🙂

    It’s like even though my friends and family love me, and I them, and we all know it—-when they DO something, and for me it’s those tiny, sweet gestures—-my grin rivals the Cheshire Cat, inside and out.

    Booth just “Squinted” at Brennan….

    …And LOOK at her reaction. 🙂

    (Nice move, Booth. *thumbs WAY up*)

  7. I loved the way Booth described Brennan. Full on loved it! 😀

    I’ll admit that occasionally with these moments i worry the writers will over do it. They have moments of brilliance…then moments where i’m forced to roll my eyes. (Yeah…i’m not a romantic & anything OTT makes me roll my eyes. So sue me 😛 )

    But this was so……them. For one it was unique to Brennan. No generic compliments for her! LOL

    Plus did anyone else just love the way it just rolled off Booths tongue? No thought involved he just..said it. Kinda makes me think he’s thought about it a lot and had an answer prepared! LOL

    Sorry….back to your actual question! 🙂

    In terms of vulnerability i think they are very much on equal terms. Their feelings for one another leave them both at their most vulnerable and i don’t think it’s something that can be measured.

    Both of them have been rejected by the other. Brennan chose being alone over Booth. Booth then chose Hannah over Brennan. Both of their choices came back to bite them in the ass. When it comes to moving forward both are going to have their issues to overcome…and like i said yesterday i think when they eventually do they’ll make that step together. Equals.

    • So…gotta ask. Is he in love with her yet?!

      • How is Booth answering Brennan’s question indicative of him being in love with her?

      • Nope 😀

        And that’s all i’ll say on the matter…don’t want to take over this BT post with that argument!!! LOL

      • Firefly, you have stumbled into a long running issue…Laffers does not think Booth has ever been in love with Brennan. I think for her it’s like porn – she’ll know it when she sees it. 😉

      • Can’t reply to Firefly729 below here, so will do so here.

        It wouldn’t, necessarily, though many see it as a romantic gesture which they equate with love (but I know you and Laffers do not.)

        But since I don’t know what an ‘in love’ Booth will look like to you two, it seemed a fair question. Is he at least falling in love yet? (Serious question, btw…)

        Mostly, I’m still trying to understand what you’re waiting to see to know he is in love. (And I gather she is?)

    • So Ryn…i can’t reply to you either so i’m replying to myself. Love it! LOL

      I can’t tell you exactly what i’m waiting for you. Loves not really something you can point at and say ‘YES! There it is!’.

      For me it’s more about who Booth is. I think he still has too much…something, left over from Hannah to be in love in love with Brennan. He’s got things he needs to sort out…now, maybe HH won’t play it that way (as in the right way!! LOL). Maybe he’ll skip over the hard bits and present us with a fait accompli…a ‘Hey guys…he loves her now’ type dealeo. I hope not but i wouldn’t totally put it past him.

      Really until Booth straightens his head out i won’t totally buy him loving anyone. But that’s just me 😀

      As for loving her pre Hannah…i have my reasons for disagreeing 😛

      • Ryn – here is where I get a little waffley in my view. I think if he is falling in love, it’s something he doesn’t realize at this point. It may be part of the ‘flash of light’ realization that HH was talking about in his conference call.

      • And yes, I do think she’s in love with him right now. I’m not sure what Booth in love will look like (maybe it’s like pornography – I’ll know it when I see it ;)), but I do agree with Laffers that right now he still has that ‘something’ that he’s dealing with that’s kind of preventing him from opening his heart in that way right now.

      • @Barbara – I didn’t read that you responded with the porn comment until after I had already posted mine. Sorry about that. Jinx! LOL

  8. To be honest, I’m a Booth girl and so I tend to be protective of him but they are both vulnerable and I don’t think we can determine who is more so. When it comes to love…all hearts can break.

    We never saw how truly torn apart Booth was by Brennan’s rejection last year but it was enough to drive him into seeking out another relationship. I think he is more vulnerable because of the past actions of these 2 women in his life. I think it was Brennan’s actions that impacted him more. Hannah was just the culmination of everything that went wrong between he and Bones. Hannah was a mistake and he knows it but they’ll probably never address this issue anymore. The Doctor in the Photo epi showed how vulnerable Brennan was but her ability to compartmentalize her life continues to show us that hard shell of hers. Inside…she’s probably scared as hell…outside…she’s coping and attempting to change for the sake of her future with Booth…….perhaps.

    I think what happened in the bar scene in the episode where Booth and Hannah broke up and also what happened in the elevator episode are indicators that nothing is going to happen until Booth is ready. Its a waiting game and Booth is the one that has to say…OK…its time. I think he will once again be the one making that first move with Brennan. He’s gonna put himself out there for another “potential” slap down from Brennan but I think this time…he’s being more analytical about it. He’s observing her more and so the potential..NO…will probably not happen. If Brennan is truly “growing” or “evolving” then she should be able to see the dynamic that’s happening between them and if she doesn’t want to go there…she should stop him now. But she isn’t doing this…she’s hanging out with him like they used to do. She’s allowing him to talk about “love” as we saw in the elevator episode. Like I said…I’m a Booth girl and a part of me is scared she’s gonna hurt him again. She’s giving him the same signals she gave last year. Yes…its not exactly the same but to allow Booth to have a conversation about love…well…that’s opening up a door they’d closed last year so I’m apprehensive for Booth and I don’t blame him for taking his time with this at all….althought…as a shipper…I want to say…..puhleeze….get on with it….it’s time…I’m ready even if you’re not. 🙂

    • I have to disagree on two points..because i’m contrary like that 😀

      1. I don’t think Brennans rejected ‘drove’ him anywhere. He made a decision to move on and he stuck to that decision.

      2. And i respectfully disagree on Hannah being a mistake. I don’t see it as a mistake and I think it’s safe to say Booth doesn’t either. He loved her…honest to goodness loved her and i don’t think he views that as a mistake. How it ended possibly. The relationship as a whole.

      And on a different note (this isn’t directed at you, just a generalisation!) i tend to think people makes assumptions re how Booth now feels about his relationship with Hannah based on how THEY feel. The didn’t like it. They think it was a mistake. Therefore he must too which i think it completely wrong.

      • I agree with you Laffers. Hannah was not a mistake. I don’t think the relationship they have now could have existed without a Hannah.

        The other day I was pondering this…Hannah is really like Mary Poppins…an idealized figure who breezes into the characters’ lives, turns everything upside down, serves as a catalyst for change,then opens up her little umbrella and breezes off somewhere else.

        I’m not just being silly and metaphorical here. I literally think that’s what the Hannah character was – a device to set certain things in motion.

      • True. Of course, you do the same thing (make assumptions.) 😀

      • In terms of Brennan’s rejection ‘driving’ him…it did, and it didn’t. His only other choice would have been to end their partnership. He didn’t have to say he was moving on, but then he would have had to have told her no when she asked if they could still work together.

        There really wasn’t another option. Either he moved on emotionally and they continued their partnership, or he walked away. Expecting him to keep things exactly as they were (i.e., he doesn’t find someone else and continues to give her what he would give the woman he loved) when she didn’t want him would have been grossly unfair to him.

        So, no. She didn’t drive him to anything. He could have simply said ‘no, we can’t continue to work together’ when she asked.

        As to Hannah…no, she wasn’t a mistake. But she wasn’t what he’s said he’s looking for, either. Not unless you assume all sorts of things were going on between them behind the scenes that we weren’t seeing. He loved her, but it was a shallow, desperate love – based on what we saw.

    • Why do you think there is even a possibility that she doesn’t want to go there? She’s said so multiple times, to Booth’s face. She told him she had regrets, she missed her chance – he clearly understood her meaning in DiTP. She asked him what happens if you let the one you love the most get away. He knew she was referring to him. She told him in Blackout that she hoped there was a time they could be together and picked a date…do you really think she’s just leading him on??

      I’m honestly confused. I am not at all hesitant to point out Brennan’s faults – see my many comments on “Brennan, what’s not to love?” but she is not a woman who plays games. She is not coy, she is not deliberately cruel.

    • Hmm. I don’t think we’re watching the same Brennan at this point, if you think she still doesn’t want him.

      It sounds like you’re waiting for something specific from her that you’ve not seen yet, but I’m having trouble imagining what it would be. For her to tell him, point-blank, that she loves him? Would you have, after his response in TDitP and after he broke up with Hannah?

      They’ve both hurt one another, and the fact that she hurt him first doesn’t mean he didn’t hurt her just as badly. At this point, I think she’s watching his cues and is trying to give him what he wants, whatever that is.

      That said, I don’t think she’s completely confident of herself in a relationship (and maybe this is what you’re seeing?) But I do think she’s clear that she loves him.

  9. Barbara- I can’t reply to your reply! LOL

    But i no have this image of Hannah dressed as Mary Poppins…it’s cracking me right up! LOL

  10. First, the confident, easy way Booth delivered that line to Brennan was freaking hilarious. I loved it.

    Second, I think confidence and vulnerability sums it up perfectly – in that now B&B both have enough confidence to be completely vulnerable with each other.

  11. I think both Booth and Brennan are mutually vurnerable now. It is the first time in their relationship together that they are even close to being on the same page where their feelings, wants and needs are concerned. I think Brennan, more than Booth, may be really scared right now. Booth has been in relationships before, that at some time and point, worked for him. I don’t think Brennan has been in a healthy or satisfying relationship, ever. For Brennan this is something foreign to her. If you were to ask her honestly who the most important person in her life was, I think she’d say it was Booth. Brennan needs him now and for the first time she is admitting that to herself and to Booth. Needing someone is not something Brennan has allowed herself to do, in a very long time. This attempting a relationship, in a way is harder on her than it may be on Booth. Booth is someone who I see doesn’t really have a hard time starting a relationship with someone who is interested in him. That part doesn’t seem a problem for him. Its the keeping the relationship going that seems to be his problem. That is where his vunerabilty is. Will he be able to make Brennan stay and not leave some point down the road.

  12. To Barbara: I think this is more my mistrust of HH in his attempts to continue keeping them apart rather than what seems to be the next obvious step for B&B. I just don’t trust him. There have been other “seemingly” obvious steps for B&B and they weren’t taken. Brennan can say all the things we as shippers want to hear but will HH move B&B in that obvious direction? I really don’t know. I think many thought they were going to be moved in that direction pre 100th episode and everything was turned upside down for those believers. A part of me believes he will do the same thing again….especially after I just learned that they are attempting to get renewed for 2 years…not just 1 year. If renewed for 2 years, this gives him more “play” time to keep them apart. See…mistrust on my part and I can’t seem to get over this though I really want to. I’ve become jaded. To Laffers: Well I did say I am protective of Booth. LOL. I do believe her rejection drove him to Hannah. I also believe that Booth was hurt several more times by Bones. It wasn’t just that initial 100th epi rejection that hurt him. I look at the Boy with the Answer and I see a rejected Booth as Brennan quickly gets into the taxi. I look at the season 5 finale and her decision to leave for Maluku was another moment that he experienced hurt at her hands. In the season 6 opener…when he mentions she never called…I see a Booth that was again hurt by Brennan. How much can a guy take? Yes, he chose Hannah but I give him a break for doing this. Don’t get me wrong, I understand Brennan’s choices…that she had to do this for her own sake but it doesn’t lessen or eliminate the hurt he experienced because of actions she took. I’m not a Brennan hater. I want these 2 together because I believe they should be…especially when I look at seasons 1-4. These 2 were made for each other and I want to see it happen. RE: Hannah. I was angry at the Hannah SL because it bored me. I thought most episodes were written poorly and were predictable and the Hannah actress was irritating. I understood it was a device but I don’t think it was handled as well as it could have been. They had a prime opportunity to ramp up the excitement for viewers regarding…who loves who….there could have been a lot more drama connected to this SL but instead we got…IMO….meh episodes. But…back to Booth… I do not understand how they can write a Booth that was “in love” with Hannah one day and in less than 6 months (exaggerated timeline) is over her. I question…was that really love or as someone said somewhere in these forums….was he in love with the idea of being in love???? And now he’s talking about love between he and Brennan? How can you fall in and out of love so quickly? I don’t have an answer for this except to say….because HH is “writing” it that way. So, for me, the idea of natural progression and/or evolving the characters organically…well…it doesn’t strike me as something real. These characters are at the mercy of someone’s pen and on a whim…that writer can do anything. Was Booth in love with Hannah? I don’t really know given how he is moving back in Brennan’s direction with “apparent” ease. As you can see, again, I am a bit jaded.

    • Well, I said it in the other Morning After Question but I have no issues trusting Hart Hanson. I don’t feel betrayed. I think what happened with the season 4 finale was HH doing the same kind of promotional talking up of an episode not realizing how deeply invested the online fandom was, and how very, very seriously his words would be taken.

      With the 100th, I see ample evidence that Brennan wasn’t going to say yes – but that’s been hashed out a million times. It sometimes feels like a good old fashioned Harry/Hermione vs Ron/Hermione debate up in here!

      I see no reason for HH to set up a romance for six plus years and not deliver on that. As a business decision, it would impact DVD sales and the audience goodwill directed toward his future projects. As a creative decision, you just don’t spend years crafting a story just to make all your work moot in the end, because you think it will be amusing to rile up people on the internet. As a personal decision, I just don’t think HH spends a lot of time thinking about purposely upsetting fans for his own entertainment.

      If the show is renewed for two years, I will sit back and enjoy two more years. I don’t need to see Booth and Brennan having sex to believe they are a couple. There are other aspects of the show besides B&B that I enjoy and would enjoy seeing for two years.

      As for Booth falling in and out of love – there’s no rule out there that says you need X amount of time to fall in or out. I believe Booth believed he loved Hannah. That’s really the point of the arc for me. Whether he”really” loved her – well how do we know whether anyone “really” loves anyone? How do we define “really” loving someone? Is there more than one kind of love? Is it possible that Booth still loved Brennan but believed that Brennan was an impossibility but he could be happy with Hannah and so he chose to love her?

      These are all valid questions…these are questions that have been asked in some form or another since the first love story ever told. I don’t know their answers, I don’t know if they can be answered.

      I went through a period of deep unhappiness with the show. I did not want to see Brennan reject Booth. I did not want to see Booth propose. I felt like my choices were to find meaning in those events or just give up on the show. I am not at ALL implying you should do either of those things – I’m just saying that for me, I get no enjoyment out of watching the show with a sense of dread or bitterness or expectation of disappointment. I choose to seek meaning in each episode.

      • I never read HHs comments about the season 4 finale. I still don’t read anything he or any of the actors say about the show. I am interview and spoiler free so I’ve no idea what they think. If I hear something about HH or the actors…its because someone tells me….such and such was said, etc. I started watching this show in Aug 2009 so betrayal was never an issue for me. I will say that I quickly became a fan and gobbled up all the dvds prior to the season 5 premiere and thought HH did wonderfully creating this series so you are saying things that I used to say regarding HH and a part of me still believes he will deliver. When I look at the hospital scene in the Critics in the Cabernet, I tell myself…someone that could produce something that special is going to deliver on what is so obviously a love story between B&B. How can he not deliver on something that is so obviously special and great? As you implied…it makes no sense. This is who I was going into season 5. This is who I was going into season 6. And I’m still that person…but with a touch of cynicism now mingled in. I watch each epi expecting only one thing these days..to be entertained and when I’m not…that’s when my disappointment emerges and for me…a person who, on another forum, used to analyze episodes to death (in a POSITIVE way…BTW…as Angelena and cosmicgirl can attest to) …I find myself doing less and less of that today. I don’t expect to be disappointed when I sit down to watch an episode. Today, I look less and less at the subtext and delve less and less into the deeper meaning of an epi when I enjoy only 5 minutes of it….which is basically what the last few episodes have done for me. In the end, I want to be entertained regardless of where the story goes and I feel this season has not delivered on that….at least not for me. So why am I still on a forum? Habit and still not wanting to let go of this show I loved and still have hopes for. I have to see what happens to B&B…I can’t let them go….so I’m still hooked. But, my time spent on any forum has dramatically decreased from 9 months ago when you couldn’t push me away from the computer. I’m surprised I’ve posted this much today as I tend to just lurk and avoid comment as much as possible. I also tend to edit myself a lot more but for some reason didn’t do that this time. Right now I’m on this road about being more open in regards to what I’m thinking about…which is probably why I wrote so much today. I think I’ll go back into my little shell….

    • You don’t need to go into a shell on my account!

      Really, I’m not…if you don’t like what’s happening on the show, that’s obviously fine. I guess I’m just feeling frustrated in general and commented on your post because it was here.

      There’s this overwhelming feeling of anger in the fandom (NOT from you) and automatic distrust of the writers (again, NOT talking about you, personally) that gives the powers that be NO credit for anything.

      I’ve read commentary (not here) that The Finder was just a pilot, the Bones cast was just used to sell the pilot and therefore nothing that happened in this episode with Booth and Brennan should be considered. They absolutely refuse to consider any of the B&B moments relevant because it wasn’t a “real” episode. David and Emily were just pretending to have chemistry to sell the pilot. Which to me is just…deliberate obtuseness.

      When I suggested – again not here – that the pre-Blizzard episodes all had cases with themes like deception, counterfeiting, people pretending to be who they weren’t, and the post Blizzard episodes are about things like contrition and truth and finding things, I was flat out told “No, the writing staff is too stupid to do that on purpose. It’s a coincidence. The writers aren’t that smart or insightful.”

      I mean, there’s a compromise between “everything written is brilliance” and “the scripts are churned out by monkeys banging away at typewriters.”

      There’s a lot of heartbreak in season 6, but also a lot to love. Just like life.

      • It’s funny, I was thinking a minute ago about compromise. Early in the season, there were a lot of Booth haters out there who called him a dog and a slut and even suggested that he should be written off the show. (this was on another forum). These Booth haters are now all about loving Booth…again. I want to shout at these people…uh huh….where were you 6 months ago…but I’m quiet. Anyway, we get the extremes on forums and there are few people in the middle where compromises can be had… but its difficult to get there if people are unwilling to really listen. I edit myself a lot because I don’t feel people really want to listen (in this I’m talking about the other site I go to). If I say what I really believe…then it is perceived as me trying to CONVINCE or SELL my POV…that I want to change their mind, etc. So editing myself has become a habit I can’t seem to break right now (except for today). I am not affected by this season’s story, perhaps because my disappointment early on…the fact that I found the epis more boring than anything…made me disengage whatever emotional investment I had in the show. I was able to remove myself emotionally while still being hooked in wanting to know what happens to B&B. I prefer where I am right now even though I still get disappointed with these episodes that haven’t offered any drama or excitement. I don’t look at the behavior between B&B in this last episode as separate from the rest of the season. Its part of it and as such…what happened between them is as real and valid as we’ve seen on any other epi. In this…I think we agree.

      • I’ve seen people say they want the Finder to be picked up so Hart will go work on that and leave Booth and Brennan alone. It’s like B&B are real people being tormented by him and if he’d just move to Pluto, they’d live happily ever after.

        The reality is that everything people like about the show – or liked at one point – comes from the same place that everything they don’t like does. I understand losing faith in a writer, but this just mystifies me.

  13. Sarajade, just from personal experience, you can love someone very much and want to be with them for the rest of your life and then the person you thought loves you does something to destroy your love. When that happened to me, that person no longer existed. I know that is cold; but, that was how I protected myself. Booth, who is the victim of bad relationships has done the same thing to Hannah. Right or wrong, it works for Booth. As for Booth falling quickly in love with Brennan again, truthfully, I don’t think he ever fell out of love with her. He moved on; but, he didn’t move away.

    • My reference to falling in and out of love so quickly was in regards to Hannah. I knew he’d never fallen out of love with Bones. The way they’ve been written…its an epic type of love story so that love was always there. Another reason I question Booth’s love for Hannah….Brennan rejected him but he never wanted to be away from her. He didn’t turn his back on Brennan. He did with Hannah. I have a hard time calling that love….

      • Now…just to clarify further….I don’t believe he was just “playing” with Hannah. I know he wanted to make a real go of it with her.

  14. Ryn-

    But i’m allowed….i’m me 😉

  15. Ryn- Still can’t respond to you! LOL

    See…i have major problems with how people (you, me and everyone else) view Booths relationship and his love for Hannah.

    You say it was shallow and desperate? Shallow i may be able to give you but desperate…can you expand for me? How was it desperate? He wanted it yes. But everyone wants the relationship they are in to work so…?

    I think everyones view of what love is or should be is different (hence why you think Booth loves Brennan and i don’t) so i find it hard to wrap my head around it when people refer to Booths love for Hannah being the ‘wrong’ kind.

    Who are we to define what is right and what is wrong? I know more than one relationship that i look at and think…’God…i’d never want to be in that kind of relationship’ but the two people involved are happy. Content. Maybe it’s shallow to me or you. Maybe the two people involved don’t know each other the way you or I think they should. But they’re happy…that’s really all that matters even if we don’t understand it or agree with it.

    • Hmm. How to put this… I believe in different kinds of love. Absolutely. But love that lasts has certain components to it. (And yes, I’m basing that on psych research as a well as couples I know who have passed the 25 year mark.)

      A few of those components are trust, the ability to be yourself, emotional intimacy (a willingness/ability to share deeper parts of yourself.)

      Booth wasn’t himself with Hannah. Or, if he was, he’s never been himself before, not in the five years we’ve known him. The Booth we’ve seen before, which seems to fit his general personality, wouldn’t have backed down from going after the corrupt cop who shot her. He wouldn’t have told her, necessarily, as Brennan still doesn’t know about the gang leader, but he would have continued investigating. And he didn’t. They could have filmed the scene so that Hannah, who didn’t know him, would think he was backing down but the audience would know better. And what I saw there was cowed Booth agreeing to let the cop who shot his girlfriend go free, at least or until Hannah got her story. He’s not being his true self with her.

      Same with the things we didn’t see them talk about. This is where it gets tricky, because you can imagine a perfect relationship between them. I can, too. I can imagine conversations about things other than her job, Brennan or Parker. I can imagine him telling her about his sniper past and his gambling, can imagine him telling her about Pops and his dad. But if so, it’s all my imagination, because we didn’t see any of those things. We saw lots of sex, saw sex in place of conversation.

      We also saw Booth being very careful not to say or do the wrong thing. He tried to impress her with certain carefully constructed actions – buying new sheets, a candlelit dinner – because he wanted to be the perfect romantic partner. But he never told her anything important about himself.

      Is that wrong? No. Absolutely not. We all do that at the beginning of a relationship. But a relationship that never gets beyond that doesn’t stand a chance long term, because a person can’t sustain not being who they are for ever. That’s why I say it was a shallow love – because he was being careful not to risk any depth. (I suspect she was, too, since we never learned anything about her – not where she grew up, how she knew she wanted to be a journalist, nothing.)

      And I say desperate in part because we keep seeing him trying to ‘do’ the right thing – even to buying the salewoman’s pitch in the jewelry store that the biggest rock would prove his love – and in part because the entire time they’re together, he’s telling people how wonderful it is, sometimes with a definite edge to it. Yes, he’d be entitled to be annoyed that people kept questioning him. but honestly, if he had no doubts at all himself, I’d have expected him to relax at some point about it, figure it was their issue and go on.

      None of that means he didn’t love her. He did. But it was a shallow, desperate love, and not one that could last the duration unless it deepened. In the real world, if Brennan hadn’t been a factor, I think he would have eventually snapped and revealed the true!Booth to Hannah. And hopefully she would have been okay with that, and loved him even more. And hopefully revealed the true Hannah to him, and they could have gone from there.

      But that’s not what happened, because it’s not the Booth and Hannah story.

      I don’t know if you’ve seen my unpacking of their relationship (you wouldn’t like it, anyway) but nothing makes sense to me about their relationship unless I assume he was lying when he told Brennan it was ‘serious as a heart attack’ in Mastodon. He didn’t fall in love with Hannah until she walked into the diner and rescued him. And that, too, factored into his desperation to make it work…which set up what happened in Daredevil.

      If I’m wrong in that, and he wasn’t lying to Brennan…he was already in trouble, because a relationship where he was only going to see the woman a few weeks a year would never be what he wants.

      • He was lying to himself.

      • Replying to Angelena here, though I don’t know if she’ll see it.

        Yes, he was lying to himself. But I think he was also lying to Brennan, and Caroline, and Sweets, and everyone else he discussed Hannah with prior to her arrival.

        And here’s why: Hannah had told him she would never request a stateside assignment. And based on his response when she comes into the diner, he’s believed her. (This was confirmed by SN, as well, who noted that Booth was not expecting her to follow him.) That means that when he left Afghanistan, as far as he knew, they were never going to be living on the same continent again.

        He’s in a long-distance relationship, one that he doesn’t expect to ever not be long-distance. A short term long-distance relationship is one thing: people do it all the time. And it’s easier now than it used to be, with the internet, and Skype and what have you. He could count on video chats with her on a regular basis. And she probably has decent vacation time and racks up enough miles that they could get together at least once a year for several weeks during vacations.

        But when she sets foot in the diner, that – seeing her on her next vacation – is the very best he’s planning for. Yes, it’s possible he was just living for the moment and pretending that some day she’d change her mind and move to the US…but that’s not what he says when he sees her. He seems sincerely shocked.

        So either the man many assume wants marriage more than anything else was content to enter into a long term relationship with someone he’d only see a few times a year, or he relationship wasn’t what he represented it as to Brennan and everyone else, and he knew it.

        Since I can’t wrap my head around him thinking a relationship where he’d only see the woman for a few weeks a year – forever – would work for him, I tend to go with the latter.

        I think he met Hannah and was attracted to her. Came to care about her as a result of being in an adrenaline-fueled environment. When she told him she would never request a stateside transfer, he assumed that meant their relationship wouldn’t survive, but right then, for that moment in time, it was good for him. She was helping him forget the woman who didn’t want him, helping him to believe someone could want him, even if not long-term.

        And then he’s back in DC, and sees Brennan, and if you watch his face right when he first sees her…there’s joy there. And then, by the time they’re hugging, it’s been replaced. I think he realizes when he sees her that he’s just as messed up over her as he had been before they separated, which was so not what he wanted. And he has no reason at all to believe she might have changed her mind, since she’d not contacted him, so he takes refuge in Hannah, builds the relationship into more than it currently was, as a shield against what he was feeling for Brennan.

        He continues to do so, telling Brennan it’s love, etc. Until Hannah saves him by coming into the diner. And that’s when he falls for her, I think. She’s now someone who had loved him enough to change her mind on ‘never’ (as in ‘never request a transfer), to want to be with him. He does feel something for her – how could he not? But I think it grew out of gratitude and relief that her presence would make it easier for him to get over being in love with Brennan.

    • Just realized I didn’t respond to all your comments. Yes, two people can be happy in ways that mystify us. But if they’re not being themselves, sooner or later, one or both will turn to someone else and if there’s any kind of traditional component to the relationship (i.e., sexual faithfulness) the relationship will end at that point.

      We don’t know enough about Hannah to know whether they might have really made a go of it if they got to know one another and Brennan wasn’t in the picture. You assume Hannah had made a long term commitment to him – just not marriage – which we never saw any indication of. If that’s true, maybe they could have made it. But the relationship they had was built on sand and not sustainable for long. IMO.

      • You say we never saw any indication of Hannah commiting to him but…what about when she moved in with him?

        Yes, the invitation/acceptance of that was very casual but the fact is she did move in with him. And she STAYED moved in with him.

        Now i’m no expert in relationships (hands up if you’re shocked?! LOL) but moving in to most people is a commitment.

        I have friends who have lived together for years and have no inclination to get married because one or both of them are happy the way they are. It doesn’t mean they aren’t commited to one another…it just means they don’t need a slip of paper to solidify that commitment.

      • I think Booth viewed her moving in just as you did, Laffers. A commitment. I feel certain Booth made the offer knowing HE was making a commitment.

        Hannah, however, saw it as another adventure. Logistically convenient. I base this feeling on her three suitcases, her admitted nomad tendencies, and that housewarming present — well, first that she had to ask (if you don’t know someone well enough to choose a gift for them, should you be living with them??) But also because it was a gift for HIM. It didn’t reflect her tastes, it wasn’t something they would both like that would signify that this was their joint home. It was something that he would like that would fit in his house even after she was gone.

        And then in Daredevil, she admits she always planned to be gone. “I thought we’d have more time.”

        I have never faulted Booth for proposing. I never agreed with the “he should have known she’d say no” POV. She gave up her job to follow him to DC, she moved in with him, she met and charmed his son (and discussed marriage and children with Parker). That Booth misunderstood her motivations for doing those things is tragic, but not mysterious, to me.

      • Replying to Laffers here, since I can’t there…

        Perhaps the problem is the meaning of ‘commitment.’ If someone says, ‘I’m here today, I’m making a commitment to you to be here today and with no one else’ – that’s still a commitment. And with someone else with that same definition of commitment, she’d be fine. But if commitment means more than that to the other person, as in, ‘settling in for a long term relationship/building a life together’ – there’s a problem. And we saw nothing from Hannah to indicate she was interested in building a life together.

        What we know is that he didn’t expect her to follow him. She’d told him she wouldn’t. When she did, she arrived with a few suitcases, no expectation of living with him, and still identifying herself as a nomad. Not ‘I was a nomad, but no longer!’ but ‘I prefer the term nomad.’ She’s not seeing herself any differently because she’s followed him to DC. She’s expecting to move on.

        Parker is obviously an important part of Booth’s life, but she resists meeting him for as long as she can. No, she’s not comfortable with kids – I get that. And I don’t fault her for it. But if she’s thinking of their arrangement as any kind of commitment for longer than ‘today’ it seems like she would have been more open to that part of Booth’s life earlier. I give her all kinds of kudos for doing so very graciously once he wore her down, particularly since she was obviously freaked by it. But the point is the same: however it was she viewed her relationship with Booth, her first choice was not even to be introduced to a significant part of his life.

        The message seemed to be that she wanted to share part of his life with him. This is where you’ll probably tell me that arrangement could/should work perfectly well – that couples can be perfectly happy sharing a bed/apartment without fully sharing one another’s lives, or being selective in how much they share. And that’s true. And you could also say that she must have tried to tell Booth that she wasn’t interested in sharing all his life (i.e., meeting Parker) just as she tried to tell him she would never marry him. But we didn’t see any of that. It’s an assumption.

        In terms of what we were given, I see nothing that suggests she was making a commitment to him longer than ‘I’m here today, that should be enough.’

        And yes, I agree. For most people, moving in would be a commitment. But for most people, moving in is a choice of ‘do I give up my apt and go to his?’ Hannah didn’t have a place – it was either a hotel or moving in with him. An apartment – with a lease – is never even referenced. (Not surprising that a nomad would shudder at the idea of a lease.)

        We didn’t see her say, ‘I’m staying at the hotel and will go apartment hunting in a few days’ to which Booth said, ‘no, why don’t we take our relationship to the next level and you move in with me?’ Instead, ‘they’re putting me up at the hotel’ to which he says, ‘that place is filthy, here’s my key.’

        And here’s something I’ve just noticed…she doesn’t move in at that point. That’s from Couple in the Cave, but then in Maggot, she still doesn’t have clothes there. So she stays in the hotel for some period of time after that, until not living with him becomes an inconvenience.

        Still, she did make a commitment to him. Absolutely. More of one than she’d expected to make. But if you assume that she saw it as more than ‘just for today’ you’re basing it on things we never saw from her. And yes, you can blame Booth for not being satisfied with ‘just for today/not fully sharing our lives’ – but then you’re asking him to be someone he’s not.

  16. I think right now, Booth is the more vulnerable.

    This relationship stuff is new to Brennan, but it’s new in the way that doing something you’ve never done before is new. And when you don’t know what’s going to happen, you’re more open to possibilities but you’re also more open to negative fallout, because you just don’t know what to expect. You don’t have preconceived ideas to sharpen the pain or disappointment.

    Booth, on the other hand, is facing love in a way he hasn’t before. IMO, Booth is girly about love. He falls in love easily, hurts when it doesn’t work out, but finds a new love to help him get over it. This is different. His first offering to Brennan was, I think, typical Booth. And it was typical Booth that drove him to doing the nasty in public with a woman he’d just met. It was typical Booth to disregard everything Hannah had said about marriage and make that rash proposal.

    What’s happening right now is not typical Booth. What’s happening right now (again, IMO) is a result of some self-reflection induced by the pain of Hannah’s rejection, coming on top of Brennan’s rejection. “Why don’t women want what I’m offering?” or something like that. That’s a pretty powerful question to ask yourself, and a powerful answer if you figure it out. And I think he has. I think Booth has grown up, about love.

    But because he’s driven on the Road of Love a few times, I think he’s more vulnerable to a deeper hurt if this doesn’t work out this time. Again. And I think he knows how much worse it could be this time, and the extra slowness, the care to use Brennan-words for Brennan – that kind of stuff, that’s him being careful to make this time different.

  17. As I’ve thought this over over the last 24 hours, I didn’t have anything to add really. Then 24 hours later I was rereading and this struck me:

    The biggest evidence that they are growing more comfortable with each other and that Brennan is willing to be more vulnerable was when she told Booth that Walter did give him his moment with his son. He expects the truth from her, but this was a very harsh truth and not like her usual harsh truths (I know you’re stupid). He clearly was not about to let that make him forgive Walter. And, he felt comfortable enough to say it while implicitly acknowledging that she was right.

    On the vulnerability thing: just because he still is kind of an open wound, I think that Booth is. He is relying on the fact that he can rely on her for the truth. In this case, the truth that she is open to being a couple. He is letting himself hope for a different outcome despite the past.

  18. Ryn-

    I understand what you’re saying…i don’t completely agree but i understand.

    I think my problem with the entire situation re Booth/Hannah (and this isn’t directed at you but others) is that everything i read, hear etc is about how Hannah was asking Booth to be someone he was not. And people crucify her for that. Not one person (other than me! LOL. Same old same old 😛 ) mentions that the reverse was/is also true…Booth was asking Hannah to be someone she isn’t/wasn’t.

    People also mention how she wasn’t committed to him…well, if you argue that then you have to accept that the reverse is again true. He was not committed to her.

    It’s all very one sided and it comes back to the fact that anyone who blindly defends Booth or Brennan will rub me up the wrong way…again, not you! (You defend him when you feel it’s required but you’re also not blind to his less that stellar moments 😀 )

    • I absolutely agree with you that he was asking her to be someone she wasn’t. I think her coming to DC meant something very different to her than it did him. Yes, it was a commitment from her, and for someone who considers herself a nomad who’d had no desire to work in the US, it was a big one. But the fact that she still considered herself a nomad after doing so shows, I think, that it still wasn’t the commitment he thought it was. And he couldn’t see beyond that. He looked her, dazed, and thought, ‘she changed her mind, for me. She followed me around the world. She loves me, in that ‘forever’ way.’ He was right about the love, I think, but not about the ‘forever’ part. But he couldn’t see that.

      As to his lack of commitment to her …this is where we’ll disagree, I think. He was committed to her, just not in an all-or-nothing, where he gave up everything he needed (long term commitment) to give her all she wanted. Here’s what I mean: Hannah didn’t offer a compromise that night (when he proposed.) She didn’t say, ‘look, I’m not the marrying kind, but I love you and want to be with you in a permanent, long term relationship. I’m committed here for the long haul, just not for marriage.’ She didn’t say that, didn’t say anything like that. You assume (oops!) that if she had, he would still have rejected her, that anything less than marriage wouldn’t have worked for him.

      But we’re not given that. We’re really not. She’s heartbroken that he won’t leave things exactly as they are, with no commitment longer than ‘today’ but doesn’t offer him anything else, either. All the compromise was to be on his part.

      If she had made it clear that she wanted a long term relationship with him, just not marriage, and he’d rejected her, I’d agree with you that he wasn’t making a commitment to her, either. But we didn’t see that – only that she was sad that their current arrangement was over, one she’d expected to end at some point. (Thus, not permanent, marriage or not.)

      • First off….warn a girl when you’re going to agree! I need some prep 😉

        But on your final point re the proposal we will never agree.

        You say she never compromised…well neither did he.

        Why was she expected to make the compromise? Honest question because it’s something i struggle to understand…if she loved him enough and was commited enough she should have made some sort of compromise? Right, that’s what you’re saying? (If i’m understanding you!).

        So how does it not work the other way? If Booth loved her enough or was committed to her enough shouldn’t he have also compromised?

        I really don’t understand it…it’s like one rule for him and one rule for her.

        *scratches head in confusion*

      • Warning – possible agreement coming (is that sufficient?)

        I think what you’re saying is that when she told him no marriage, ever, he should then have said, ‘so what do we have here? If you’re not the marrying kind, is what’s between us permanent? Where do you see us going? Will we still be together in two years? Five?’ And if she’d said, ‘I can’t guarantee we’ll be together in five years, but yes, I’m in this for the long haul’ he should have said, ‘okay, I can deal with that.’ He gives up what he wanted – someone really committed to him, no matter what, but gets the most she’s capable of.

        But you’re still assuming that that was what she was offering. You assume that because she changed her mind about working in the US and moved in with him, that she was making more of a commitment than ‘just for today’ – something we were never shown. Or, perhaps, even if it was ‘just for today’ that should be enough for him.

        So what it sounds like you’re saying – what I ‘hear’ you saying – is that her compromise was making any kind of commitment to him at all – changing her job, moving in with him – and that he should give up everything he wants out of a relationship – someone who will make a commitment to him to be there next year, to invest in a lifetime relationship with him – and settle for someone who says, ‘I’m a nomad, and may not be here tomorrow. But you should enjoy what you’ve got with me just for today.’ It honestly feels like that’s what you think a real compromise on his part would look like. He gives up everything he needs and settles for what she can give him, which is ‘today.’

        I get why you feel the way you do. He asked for marriage and when she said, ‘never,’ the relationship ended. But she didn’t offer him anything else, either, which I think is important. That’s what I’ve been trying to say about that scene – yes, there was an ultimatum on his part. But the fact that she accepted it, didn’t say, ‘look, I’m here for the long haul, just not marriage’ is important. I think she couldn’t say that because it wasn’t true. So any compromise is going to be him giving up everything he needs from a relationship, just to be a in relationship for the moment with her. He doesn’t want someone he has to wake up every morning wondering, ‘is this the day she leaves?’ and if she was offering anything else, we didn’t see it.

        Of course, what’s lost in this discussion is Brennan. The relationship needed to end, so having Hannah say, ‘I am here for the long haul, but no marriage’ and having him say, ‘I can go for that’ wasn’t going to happen. It might have been more honest if they’d spelled it all out, had Hannah acknowledge she wasn’t there long term, but they didn’t want her to be the bad guy, either. This way, they both looked wrong. Not the way I would have gone given the Booth-bashing in some quarters, but Hart was trying to protect Hannah, even there, I think.

      • I think her coming to DC meant something very different to her than it did him. Yes, it was a commitment from her,

        Was it really? She may have exchanged an adrenaline rush job for a more staid position but she didn’t exactly lower herself or give up any prestige to leave a desert war zone and accept a position in the White House press room. If Booth failed to get this at first and believed she did it all for him, how could he have missed the significance of the fact that she was one of only five journalists to have breakfast with the POTUS, or that she was given the privilege of traveling with him?

        Did he also miss the fact that while she was fond of calling herself a ‘troublemaker’ she never actually rocked any boats? Or that she was quite willing to accept ready-made conclusions on her given assignments without questioning the premises? As in “my boss wants me to do a story linking crime rates with lack of funding for Law Enforcement”. As Brennan would say, how does she know this is true? It sounds great, a real crowd pleaser, but can you imagine Brennan accepting an assumption spoon fed her by the PTB before all of the evidence is in? Yet Hannah seemed quite willing to do the story as she was told to do it.

        IOW, Hannah never stacked up to the hype.

    • I think Booth was a total ass the night of the proposal. I won’t blindly defend him there. Even as I watched the episode I was thinking “Wait…did he just basically toss her onto the street?!?” I was shocked that he would turn on her so quickly. It was “I never thought I’d find love again” to “How long will it take you to get your stuff out” in thirty seconds.

      However, I do think Booth thought he was committing to her. And really, it doesn’t matter what WE think – as at least partially omniscient viewers we know more than the characters know, sometimes. Booth believed he was committing to her. And since we have Brennan telling Hannah to be cautious, because Booth will give himself fully to her, I think we are supposed to accept that Booth thinks that is what he is doing.

      Thinking Booth was a jerk doesn’t preclude me from having sympathy for him. Thinking Hannah was treated shabbily after the proposal doesn’t preclude me from thinking that if she “thought they would have more time” meaning she knew it wasn’t a long term thing for her, and yet she also accepted Brennan’s warning that Booth would fully invest in their relationship…well, she’s not covered in a whole lot of glory either.

      That’s not one rule for him and one rule for her. I think Booth and Hannah mutually used each other, each making assumptions about the other’s intentions. And relationships like that tend to end in the messy, miserable way theirs did.

      • Barbara,
        Booth’s reaction really surprised me, too. Up until this point, the whole Brennan-Booth-Hannah situation was drama-free for the most part and without any hard feelings. I thought their eventual break-up would be a mutual peaceful agreement to go separate ways. The way it went down, it’s hard to defend one over the other because I thought they both contributed to the break-down. I do think there were no bad intentions from either of them, though.
        I think his relationship with Hannah was supposed to be his “proof” that he had moved on from Brennan. Perhaps the coldness came from anger that his illusion of what was love was shattered. I still think some of his anger is directed towards himself, not just the women. It’s like he knew that on some level, but with the wound still fresh he wasn’t able to step back and explore that at the time.

        I think it’s a double-standard to expect Booth to compromise wanting a long-term relationship. Would people feel the same if the genders were switched? What if Hannah wanted a long-term commitment (with or w/o marriage) and Booth said that he was only thinking about and enjoying the here and now and was unwilling to consider a more permanent future?

        Once again, I agree with you about the Brennan factor. Booth and Hannah were going to eventually break up, so no long-term commitment was going to happen. It’s really interesting to contrast his reaction to Brennan’s rejection vs. Hannah’s. To me, that said a lot about the substance of each relationship.

      • I just re-watched the ep for my response to Laffers and will say that I disagree about him tossing her into the street. I don’t think he got really mad until she offered up her alternative of, ‘let’s pretend this didn’t happen.’ He’d just offered himself to her in a way that matters to him, offered all of himself to her, she’d told him that she’s never going to be interested in that from him, and then says, ‘let’s pretend you didn’t do that, that I’m telling you I’m never going to want that from you.’

        It’s clear he wants her gone, but he doesn’t say, ‘fine, I want you out by the time I get home.’

        As I just said to Laffers – neither of them wanted what the other one was offering. The difference is that Hannah was apparently aware of that and he wasn’t. But she wanted him to pretend he did, presumably until she was done with him. No wonder he was angry.

      • As I just said to Laffers – neither of them wanted what the other one was offering. The difference is that Hannah was apparently aware of that and he wasn’t. But she wanted him to pretend he did, presumably until she was done with him. No wonder he was angry.

        Booth would have to be tone deaf, delusional, stupid, or all three not to have known that Hannah was never going to marry him. He could not have failed to understand her position when she absolutely freaked out when she came home to find the candlelit table. “Omigod, you’re not going to propose are you?!” Booth wasn’t shocked or upset by her exclamation; he didn’t even seem to care that the notion of a proposal sent her into panic mode. They just went and had sex without even discussing it, as if her attitude about marriage were of no consequence to their relationship at all.

        After a reaction like that, the idea that she would ever be amenable to a proposal of marriage would have seemed absurd to an astute observer of human nature like Booth. At the time, he didn’t seem to care.

        What happened to change his mind? I might have my timeline wrong, but the only signficant event that occurrred in their relationship between the ‘afternoon delight’ episode and the proposal was Hannah meeting Parker, after much pressure from Booth. She charmed the boy yes, but how hard was that for a pretty girl who charms everyone? “Everybody loves Hannah” right? Booth might have said her winning over Parker was ‘amazing’, but could he have failed to note that what’s really amazing is that Parker thinks the ever-challenging Brennan is the coolest person in the world?

        The only other significant event that happened, outside his relationship with Hannah, was Brennan’s confession. The proposal followed pretty closely on it’s heels, after Booth just couldn’t wait to tell Sweets and Hannah that Brennan told him she ‘loved him’ when she never actually said those words. How likely is it this event had nothing to do with a proposal that Booth would have to been fool to believe would result in a ‘yes’?

      • Anyone who can tell a young boy which animal farts the most will most definitely be the coolest person in the world. 🙂

  19. Hannah may not have offered an alternative (although I seem to remember she asked if things couldn’t stay the same) but Booth didn’t offer any alternatives, either.

    We didn’t hear anything like we heard Hodgins say, for example. I love you and I want to marry you but I’ll take you any way I can get. He didn’t say anything like, I love you and I’m willing to keep trying to change your mind because I want to go to the porch with you.

    We heard and saw Booth shut her out, immediately after she turned him down. To me, he looked absolutely furious. It was only in the bar that I (personally) saw pain. I’m trying to remember and I can’t even say for sure he looked at her once she said no.

    • She doesn’t just ask if things can stay the same. She says, ‘let’s pretend none of this happened.’ She’s not willing to make more of a commitment to him than she already has (‘there’s nothing wrong with a good time’), and knows – or claims to know – that’s not what he wants. Really, saying, ‘let’s pretend this didn’t happen, that you didn’t just do this’ is throwing a pretty significant piece of himself back in his face.

      People assume if she’d said, ‘look, I want a life with you, just not marriage’ he would still have rejected her. I’m not sure that’s the case – but I know we weren’t given the opportunity to find out, because she says nothing in the entire conversation that doesn’t look like she wants him for only as long as she wants him, that it should all be on her no-strings-attached terms.

  20. Ryn-

    Sorry babe, i think this is me not being very clear again!! (This is what happens when you have a discussion with someone a little on the dim side! 😀 )

    I don’t think Hannah compromised…i’m not saying her moving in with him WAS her compromise. It was a commitment from her, yes. But she still would have needed to compromise with him on what he wanted…for example a ‘i won’t marry you but i want to be here with you, for the long term’ …or something way better than that but this is why i’m not a writer! LOL

    MY problem is…he doesn’t give her that choice. I’ve watched that scene too many times to count and he doesn’t…he literally tosses her out on the street. (He does…i mean, he had no guarantee she’d be able to find a hotel etc but he no longer cared. It was over and her wanted her gone.)

    I just find it frustrating when people (again not yourself) defend Booths actions so vehemently without accepting any wrong doing on his part.

    HH wrote it so that Hannah wouldn’t come out as the bad guy…and yet people are determined to place her in that role.

    But hey…the reason i defend her so much is because she’s me but hotter 😉 I can’t help it…i could write an essay on her! LOL

    • You know it really seemed that neither one was willing to compromise there (at least neither one offered a compromise). Hannah wanted to continue the way they were and Booth wanted marriage. With both of them it seems it was a case of my way or the highway. Literally, and in both cases it was Hannah hitting the highway! It really seems that both of them thought they could get what they wanted from the relationship without regard for what the other actually wanted from it. Does that cast either one of them in a very good light?

      • Excellent point!

      • I agree, Frankie. Neither of them were shown to be open to any kind of compromise. I think what puts Hannah a little more in the at-fault category is she apparently knew he wanted more, and he didn’t. Whether he should have known she didn’t is a different matter, I think. We don’t really know how clear she was on that – maybe not clear enough to be heard over “I followed you around the world.” But either way, she knew, and he didn’t.

        Maybe it’s just me, but that puts the burden on her to make it cystal clear what she wants, and what she doesn’t. The moment she became aware he was “the marrying kind” she should have said, “look, I’m not in this for the duration.” And she didn’t.

    • Okay. For you, I just re-watched it. And it’s very clear he wants her to move out. But I don’t see the whole thing quite the way you do, possibly because you’re identifying so closely with her.

      I don’t see where he never gave her an opportunity to suggest something else. Because in fact, she does suggest an alternative: she wants to pretend he’s not just offered something important to him and had her tell him she’ll never want it. That’s the best she can give him, is to pretend it didn’t happen.

      It’s insult on top of injury, really: “I’ve just hurt you by rejecting something you hold precious. I’ve just told you that I know what you want out of life, have known for a while and that I don’t want that, but let’s pretend none of that is true, that I didn’t just hurt you. Let’s continue on as we are, which is working really well for me, and if you’ll just pretend you’re not the man you are, would work for you, too.”

      That’s her alternative. Pretend he doesn’t want more than she does. And in the absence of anything else, I think the logical interpretation of what she’s saying is, ‘no, I don’t want you the way you want me, but let’s pretend that’s not the case until I’m ready to leave.’

      And that’s when he moves from hurt to anger, I think. By saying ‘let’s just pretend this little mistake of yours didn’t happen’ she’s dismissing what he offered her as unimportant. (You might not think so, but I think he felt that way. I know I can’t really hear it as anything other than insulting, even though I do believe she didn’t mean it that way.)

      She says, ‘what happens now?’ and he says, ‘what do you think happens now?’ – which is not, ‘you get your stuff and get out.’ Maybe he would have said that anyway, honestly. Let’s face it – the relationship had to end sometime, or the show wouldn’t be called ‘Bones.’ But if when he said that, she’d said, ‘look – I’m here for the long haul. I love you. I want to build a life with you. I’m committed to you. I just can’t be a wife.’ – we don’t know what he would have said. In some alternate universe that didn’t involve a future with Temperance Brennan, he might well have said, ‘okay.’

      But instead, she says, ‘let’s pretend you didn’t just do that, didn’t just offer yourself like that. Let’s pretend I didn’t just tell you that I’ve known all along that I don’t want the same thing you do out of life, and go on a little while longer pretending we do.’ It’s an insult, intentional or not.

      And she can tell from his face that the answer is no – and why shouldn’t it be? If you offered yourself to someone and they said, ‘nope, don’t want all of you, just the parts I like – can we skip the rest?’ – would you then say, ‘okay, I’ll settle for whatever you can give me’? She’s asking him to settle for what she can give him, and maybe that’s the best she can offer. I tend to think it is, that she’s not interested in long term, marriage or not. Even her comment about ‘don’t underestimate a good time’ suggests that. So should he have settled? For as long as she wanted him?

      So she asks again ‘what happens now?’ and he still doesn’t answer. He doesn’t say, ‘get your stuff and get out.’ Not until she says she’ll leave, and then his anger comes out. But I don’t equate that with him kicking her to the curb. (er, kerb.)

      I think it would all work better (in her defense) if she’d not said that at the beginning about ‘I thought we’d have more time.’ Because after that point, everything she says sounds selfish: “I know you’re looking for a specific kind of relationship, one I am never going to give you. But I want you to settle for what I’m willing to give you until I’m done.’

      Even when she says, “I don’t think we’re finished yet’ – it strikes me as selfish, or at the very least, completely out of touch with who he is. She claims to know that he’s the marrying kind, but she apparently thinks it’s not really that important to him, because she wants him to stay with her as long as she wants him. Basically, she thinks at some point he’ll be open to the relationship she’s offering, which is ‘we’ve got what we’ve got today.’

      Again, if she were saying, ‘I’m not into marriage, but if you want someone who’ll stay by your side for forty years, I’m your girl’ – that would be different. But she’s not saying that. She’s saying, ‘this is all about me. I’m not willing to make a long term commitment to you, but I want you to stay with me as long as I want the relationship. Pretend this didn’t happen.’

      And then, after she says that, she gets defensive: “I’ve said it plenty of times before. I guess you weren’t listening.’ My problem with that, too, goes back to her earlier, “I thought we’d have more time.’ She knew he wanted more than she did. So to me, that means she knew he wasn’t grasping that difference between them. I don’t see how it works both ways. Either he gets her “I’m not the marrying kind” message, and is good with scrapping who he is for her, or he doesn’t get it and she knows sooner or later this scene would happen.

      I can’t work out another alternative there, either. She knows he’s the marrying kind. She’s not. She believes she’s communicated that, and yet also expects the day to come when he’ll ask for more and she’ll say no. How are both of those true? Either he knows, because she’s told him and assumes he’s getting it, or he doesn’t know and she assumes the day will come when it’s a problem.

      If he’s clear about her not being the marrying kind, why did she react to his proposal with ‘I knew this would happen but was hoping for more time’ rather than, ‘what the hell are you doing?’

      Largely, I think the writing is a problem because they didn’t want it to be clearly either one’s fault. So she looks selfish, and he looks like an ass, issuing ultimatums. And neither one of them seemed to be really interested in the truth of the person they were with. They both want the other to be someone they’re not.

      Here’s another way of putting it. They want different things out of life. He wants permanence, she wants today. She knows that about them – that they want different things – and he doesn’t. (Whether he should or not is a different matter.) Her idea of a compromise is ‘let’s pretend for a while longer we don’t want different things.’ So the only place he can compromise is by saying, ‘okay, you’re right. I’ll just pretend that what I want doesn’t matter at all, until you’re done with me.’

      Because the point is that she’s not willing to promise, can’t promise, that the day won’t come when she is done with him. If she thought otherwise, thought he was a man she might be able to say, ‘I want more with’ – not marriage, but more – she would have said so. And she doesn’t, because she can’t. She just wants to pretend he doesn’t want more than she can give him.

      • I hate to say it; but, the minute Hannah said, “I thought we’d have more time”, this just made me angry. For the reasons you stated (better than I can), she pretty much admitted that she knew Booth wanted a permanent relationship and she was going along with it, using him for a good time, until he got serious. Once he asked for the commitment he wanted and knew he was going to ask, for then it was over. She wanted to pretend it didn’t happen and they could still just live together and have a good time. She wanted the perfect boyfriend she saw (and Booth did try too hard to be the perfect boyfriend and not himself) and wasn’t interested in anything else. Sure he got angry. Did he handle it well? Not really. Did he have a right to be angry? Yes, really. Do I fault Booth for the fiasco? Mostly no. Hannah got what she wanted and had to do very little to get it. Sure she moved to D.C and excepted a less than stellar position; but, it was still journalism and it was still something she chose, not Booth. She moved in with him; but, so what? She had to live somewhere and Booth provided a place without her having to commit to a mortgage or a lease. She could still be that nomad she wanted to be. She came and went as she pleased. Booth didn’t get what he wanted after trying so very hard to change to make it so. It seems that all of the giving was on Booths end and very little on Hannahs end. I don’t see why people were angry with Booths reaction. I totally understand why he was angry. He was used and who likes to be used?

      • ‘no, I don’t want you the way you want me, but let’s pretend that’s not the case until I’m ready to leave.’
        **********************************
        All the Brennanites are going to kill me, but from BOOTH’S perspective, doesn’t that sound sort of like what happened from the 100th thru Beginnning in the End? I’m just saying…Hannah’s rejection clearly reminds him of every other rejection and all three women that Booth names that night said no to marriage, but wanted something else out of him (Rebecca wanted him back at least once, which is why he dumped Cam). For the first two, he gave them what they wanted (he tried again with Rebecca and got dumped again, he was Brennan’s partner until she left).

        So as mean as Booth’s behavior was, it was mentally healthy and necessary in a way. He was kind of doormat with the other two.

        Again, trying to look at this from Booth’s perspective (and dodging tomatoes throw by Brennan lovers).

      • I can sort of see that. The difference to me is that B&B weren’t romantically involved. Booth was asking to change the terms of their relationship. It wasn’t just ‘let’s take our relationship one step further,’ it was ‘let’s take our relationship down a different path.’

        Maybe that’s just semantics. But I think it’s a significant difference.

      • Somebody has to say it: Booth did not one single thing wrong as to the proposal. Once she says no and makes it clear that she realized this might happen, he’s totally justified in not wanting her in his home any more. She was capable of finding herself a hotel room or a friend to stay with for that night. How could she even want to be there?

        In fact, I think the only thing Booth did “wrong” through the whole Hannah debacle was try to convince himself that Hannah could replace Bones in his heart. She decided to follow him to DC, which he clearly did not expect. How else was he to interpret that?

        There was nothing wrong with his behavior in Afghanistan in any way either. The woman who he loved rejected him twice: as a man and later as a partner. He hadn’t heard from her. He wasn’t sure he’s ever going to see her again. A beautiful, accomplished woman wanted him. So, he, as he said he would, moved on. What would you have done?

        He was trying to move on and find some happiness for himself. Hannah was easy to be with and made him feel wanted, for a change.

        The rejection in the 100th was bad enough, but that Brennan then abandoned their partnership was an enormous blow to Booth. In my mind that pretty much excuses any stupid romantic behavior on his part.

      • Again Ryn i understand what you’re saying and i think it’s safe to say we will never agree.

        Maybe Hannah did say the wrong thing. But he blindsided her…she wasn’t expecting what he said (maybe in the future as she said ‘i thought we’d have more time ‘ but not then) and she wasn’t expecting a proposal. I think most people don’t always react or say the right thing when they are shoved into a situation not of their making or choosing. Most people panic, say the wrong thing, try to salvage the situation in what little way they can.

        You say Hannah was selfish in what she said and maybe she was. But so was he…he had what he wanted in his head and he asked for it, KNOWING she could never give it to him. (And he knew…Hannahs reaction when she THOUGHT he was proposing. The fact that she said that she had told him before that marriage wasn’t what she wanted). Then he blames her for the breakdown of their relationship and for ‘not wanting what he had to give her’. He conveniently forgets that it’s fair to say that HE didn’t want what SHE could give him.

        It goes both ways and it grates on my last nerve when people fail to acknowledge it. Hannah made mistakes but so did Booth…he was no saint in this scenario.

        And i so shouldn’t have thought about this before i go to bed…this on top of my anger at Blizzard and i’ll never get to sleep!! LOL

        Damn…guess i’ll try and calm myself down with fantasies of Daisy’s demise. Good times 😉

  21. Hannah may not have offered any alternatives, but neither did Booth. (I’ll have to rewatch that episode because I thought she said something along the lines of “can we just go back?” Which, although not the best idea, is an alternative.

    But Booth didn’t even offer that. We didn’t hear anything from him along the lines of what we heard from Hodgins – I love you, and if marriage isn’t what you want, I’ll take you any way I can get you. We didn’t hear anything like, I love you and I’m going to stick around and see if I can change your mind.

    When Hannah said no, that was it. Did he even look at her again? To me, he seemed absolutely furious, and I (IMO) didn’t see any pain until the bar later that night.

    In my opinion, the real problem with Booth and Hannah was the timing of that relationship. Except that it came on the rebound from Brennan, it might have worked. If they’d met after Cam but before the first case, maybe. Because I do think Booth loved Hannah, and without his feelings for Brennan to compare it to, they could have had a relationship that worked, at least for a period of time.

  22. Oops. I apologize for saying essentially the same thing twice. I posted the first one from my Blackberry and didn’t think it took.

    Please don’t make me mop the floors in the lab as punishment. The smell gets to me.

  23. I’m with you there regarding Booth, Angelena.

    I also don’t think it would have ever worked with Hannah because my interpretation of the 100th epi was that it was love at first sight for Booth the minute he met Bones. Call me crazy…but that’s what I believe when he said…I knew……

  24. So um, is it really weird that I had this thought that in some way Booth and Hannah are actually this warped version of what Booth and Bones relationship would have started out as if Booth hadn’t confessed to gambling and said, “…I just feel like this is going somewhere…” And they still somehow kissed and both got in that taxi and went back to one or the others apartment and had sex.

    I am saying some of this because Hannah was in it for a good time (Booth was too but wasn’t necessarily always going to be) and in the beginning of B&B’s relationship that’s what Brennan was looking for with Booth. Of course I am not saying he would have proposed to Bones but anyway, I did say warped version of Booth and Bones relationship. There still would have been the separation…I don’t know…I am just off my rocker.

    As for the vulnerability question I suppose it could have been both or maybe not at all. As for the end scene to Daredevil in the Mold neither was going to bend or compromise. Like others have said they weren’t looking for the same thing so it was best they went their separate ways. How they ended wasn’t the best. He let a drunken comment by Sweets propel him into action and he followed through. Not to mention he was indeed trying to show I don’t know himself and others he had truly moved on from Brennan (stops to laugh at that idea for a second). Now, back to it. Yes, he loved Hannah but like rynogeny I felt it was a shallow love. There was no depth to their relationship therefore no real depth to the love. (Side note: I find myself agreeing with rynogeny quite a bit when I read what rynogeny has to say). Was he cold to Hannah after she said no? Absolutely. Hurt? Yep. Angry? Oh yeah. Did Booth handle this all the best way possible? Of course not.

    Booth jumped the gun when he proposed to Hannah. He didn’t really know her that well. She didn’t really know him that well. Nor were they on the same page. Things were really a mess. But yeah, he was happy. About as happy as he could be with Hannah and still having feelings for Brennan. He downward spiraled very very very quickly after Bones confessed in the car. I seem to run out of gas.

    Please excuse the confusing and tired post.

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